Phil Wyman Interview: Excommunicated For Loving People Part 2

In part-one of this interview Phil Wyman shared with us how he was kicked out of the denomination he was involved with for the last two decades because of his ministry with Neo-Pagans in Salem, Massachusetts.

In the final part of our interview Phil shares how these events have impacted him personally, and how Pagans in Salem have responded to these events.

SMULO: How has this situation impacted you emotionally, physically, and spiritually?

WYMAN: Check out my blog [Editorial note: Phil has a second blog here]. It is my observations on the emotional impact of treachery, and stress over the last year. I theorize that the same mental disorders which afflict those struggling with mental and emotional diseases effect all of us in heightened times of stress. I have found that I have had moments of feeling bi-polar. I've dealt with minor post traumatic stress symptoms. I have had short mental/emotional lapses which felt like I was autistic. These strange phenomenon come upon most of us in deep seasons of stress. It is unfortunate, and scary to consider that failed, and sometimes self-serving Christian leadership could potentially bring such disorders upon people. I have a new appreciation for the many people I have heard say over the years, "I love Jesus, but I hate the Church."

Of course during this same season this has not been the only stress. Our son Elijah came down with a life threatening kidney disease, and may soon need a kidney transplant. This happened while the National Board was discussing our situation without my knowledge, and of course, none of our "friends" came to visit.

The sense of treachery, and disenfranchisement has been deep, but through it all we gently attempted to defend ourselves without threat. Some people think we should have filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit for libel, and wrongful termination, but we even worked diligently to follow the procedures of Matthew 18, and tried to help the denomination do the same.

Spiritually things have been a struggle as well. Prayer is different than it used to be. I read the Bible differently than I used to. I find myself praying less, reading less, but practicing lectio divina scripture meditation and journaling far more. It is taking a bit of time for the joy of serving God to rekindle in my heart, but I can feel it beginning to surge once again - after a year of this struggle.

SMULO: How have these events impacted The Gathering, and you as a pastor?

WYMAN: Well, we are non-denominational for now. I have been re-ordained under John Paul Jackson's Streams Ministries, and we are navigating our relationships with other churches, and other Christian groups. I have a new name for my closest friends - the Hill Men. These are the guys who stood by me through the hardest times, and even were willing to sacrifice their own reputations on our behalf. They took a stand on the hill with me.

The gang from Streams Ministries did that. Our friends from an emergent house church called Sinners and Saints did that for us. Some of the guys from the church I pastored in Southern California did that. A few people inside Foursquare did that as well.

Our church is filled with Hill People. No one left the church, in fact we've gained people since that time, and our little church is growing bit by bit through it all.

Among the positive things it did is make us less fearful of pushing the edge of radical loving ministry. The best shot against us has been taken, and now we're free to serve God unrestrained, and uninhibitedly. We've faced the Pharisees. We've seen the teeth of the lion, and as threatening as it has been we are still here.

Our big hurdle for this year is finances. We signed a lease in a new space to establish a postmodern evangelism outreach and training center, and we knew it would take about three years to make it happen. After year one, our former denomination has abandoned us, and we still have this dream location with a pretty high overhead, and a small church which was stretched by a grant to start it off. So, this is the year we cry out for God's provision to help us finish what we started, and help us survive this lease we initiated under Foursquare's encouragement.

SMULO: How has the media responded to this story?

WYMAN: We love Suzanne Sataline from the Wall Street Journal! I can not say enough good about her. The media in Salem has been great as well.

SMULO: How has the Neo-Pagan community reacted to this?

WYMAN: On Samhain eve, a group of Witch friends who had been interviewed by the Wall Street Journal before the story broke came down to The Vault (that's what we call our meeting place), and spent time late into the night with us.

I have received e-mails from Pagans all over the US, and even from other countries telling us how they appreciate our stand, and how they are appalled by the treatment we've received.

SMULO: You have been judged and ex-communicated for loving and developing friendships with Witches. As we’ve discussed previously, I’ve also had similar responses to my friendships and research with Witches and also Satanists. Why do you think Christians have responded this way?

WYMAN: We have had many Christians write in support of us. In fact, not one Christian has written to tell us of our errors following the Wall Street Journal Story. So, I know that there is a groundswell of believers looking for a more sensible way to navigate relationships with our generation, and its plurality of spiritual paths.

Yet, this could not have happened to us without a serious dose of superstition filling the heads of Evangelical, and Pentecostal minds. Many people in the church have believed lies spread by evangelists and Christian teachers who have told tales about Neo-Paganism only worthy of grocery store tabloid newspapers. The church has sucked up these tales about Halloween, Witches, and devils, and pastors have believed unsubstantiated (and sometimes clearly disproven) stories, and spread them in their teachings over the last 30 years. The result is that we are afraid, superstitious, and consequently offensive in our actions toward Neo-Pagans.

It is a tragedy that the very denomination which ex-communicated us on one hand, endowed us with a grant on the other hand to begin helping us teach the church that there is a better way to reach Neo-Pagans than with fear, and anger.

SMULO: Your love, friendships, and involvement with being a Jesus-follower amongst Neo-Pagans is to be commended. If Jesus were walking the earth today I have no doubt he’d be interacting with Pagans and others that Christians have, more often than not, wrongfully shunned. I greatly appreciate your willingness to share with us your response to what I believe is a shameful situation that you should have never had to experience.

WYMAN: Thanks John. I appreciate someone who has been there - done that - bought the T-shirt like you. If you ever want to mix it up and have some fun together you've always got a place in Salem. We are looking for people who think, and walk like you do bro.

Comments

[brodie]

John - Thanks for giving Phil a voice on you blog.
Phil - thanks for sharing what must still be difficult stuff and doing so with grace and dignity.

From my perspective the church needs guys like you. We need people to dispell the myths that have as you say been peddled over the past decades.

This is an area of particular interest to me as I've a relative who is a witch. My kids love her, indeed she's a great person - loving, kind and heart for justice. But the last place she's going to look for spiritual meaning or power is in a church!

I'm so aware that in raching people like this, in being able to listen to them so I can talk, I've so much to learn. So bless you guys and may God keep you and give you further insights into how to love and reach thos ehe loves.

[sally]

Phil agreeing with John here;

" I greatly appreciate your willingness to share with us your response to what I believe is a shameful situation that you should have never had to experience."

Thank you

I guess I face a vote on a similar issue tonight- will the Methodist Church ordain me, bearing in mind my connection with the New Age community!

[PamBG]

Reading some responses to sally's posts in the past - where she has been most gracious - I think that some Christians don't understand the difference between syncretism and enculturation.

Sally, honestly, I don't think what you do would be a problem for any Methodist at Church House. Blessings with your Circuit tonight. (I won't say "blessed be" *grin*.)

[PamBG]

Sorry, my comments about "syncretism and enculturation" were also meant to be a response to the post about Phil. I think he's been most brave. Blessings to Phil and his family as well.

[John Smulo]

Brodie,

I'm glad you brought up your relative who's a witch.

Its certainly to your credit that your relative trusts you with this. Many don't want to put up with the judgment that they expect from Christians.

[John Smulo]

Sally,

I'll be praying for you with this. Let us know how it goes!

[John Smulo]

Pam,

Interesting thought about not seeing the difference between syncretism and enculturation.

Sally and Phil have both been gracious and done a great service working in similar areas.

[Paul]

Thanks John for interviewing Phil - I am glad we have guys and gals like you both in the church and I think you are the future - so thank you both!

[Phil Wyman]

The syncretism vs. enculturation issue is key to understanding reaching people in these cross cultural missions.

It is important to know the difference between mission, and dogma. If our doctrinal stances are so strict as to not allow flex for missional interaction, we will most certainly enculturate our message to our own culture, and turn it into dogma, which is what has occurred with most of American Christianity. Maybe this is why I think of the Grand Ol' Opry when I think of evangelical church life. :-/

Enculturation allows us to adapt our message to someone else's culture by learning the rules of their culture. This is the only way to honestly bring a message with love!

Sally - There was a Methodist church here in Salem who was willing to bring us on as a mission church after our ordeal with Foursquare - so go Methodist!

[Adam]

John, thanks for posting this interview and bringing this good ministry to my attention.

[John Smulo]

Paul,

Thanks for the encouraging feedback my friend.

[John Smulo]

Adam,

No problem, we need to highlight and support ministries like this all we can.

[Jamie]

John,

You've done it again. Great interview.

Phil,
I'm so sorry for what you have gone through, but glad to hear that you are persevering.

[Agnethe Zimino]

Dear Phil and John,
So good to read the interview with Phil. I admire you Phil for your honesty and your desire to serve the Lord in places inspite of the fact that you are going through suffering because of it. May God bless you richly - both of you, because I sense that John has experienced almost the same opposition from christians. How sad that it should be people of God who are against you.
Here in Denmark we are trying to be close to people who are involved in new religious movements and I know that we do have christians and among them pastors who find that what we do is strange and close to being syncretistic, but fortunately Ole Skjerbæk Madsen is a solid theologian and a warmhearted christian brother, so noone has questioned what we do apart from those who find us odd and peculiar. We apparently don`t have the persecution that you have, and I`ll bring forward to some of the others that are working in this area to pray for you both and your families. Our work is mainly done on the fairs "Body, mind and spirit" where we offer prayer to people who are seeking in all kind of religious movements and in one single weekend from friday till sunday we usually pray for 4-500 people who pass by our stand in the fair. Do you have fairs like that in the USA? How is your approach to the pagans that you are befriending?

God bless you!
Agnethe Zimino, who is a pastor close to the airport of Copenhagen.

[Phil Wyman]

Agnethe,

In Salem we have a month long event leading up to Halloween, and we offer Dream Interpretation, a confessional booth (which is a reverse confession - we confess the sins of the church to them), spiritual readings (which are counseling sessions on deepening your spiritual life), and Psalm Readings (instead of Palm Readings). This year we personally ministered to over 3,000 people in two weekends of counselling. Many of these were of Pagan influence (as opposed to New Age.)

We also have similar mind, body type fairs, but that movement appears larger in the UK than here. We have Psychic fairs, Alternative Health fairs, and Renaissance Fairs.

I would love to come and minister with you in Denmark someday!

My approach to Neo-Pagans is this: I treat them as people created in God's image. I respect what they have to say whether I believe it or not. I understand their critiques of Christianity, and often agree with them, because they are correct. I assume that they became Pagans because they wanted to make a positive difference in the world. I do not compare them to Satanists! I do not fear them. I identify with them in persecution (and oh boy do I identify now!) because in the "Burning Times" I would have been on the Heretic's stake next to the Witch's stake.

Those are just a few points of simple, loving approach to Neo-Pagans. It's not too much different than treating anyone well.

[Phil Wyman]

Oh by the way John,

I thought that you would cut that last photo so I looked like I was being boiled in a cauldron. ;-)

Phil

[John Smulo]

Jamie,

Thanks for the encouragement!

[John Smulo]

Agnethe,

Thank you for your support and for sharing. I've thoroughly enjoyed meeting you, Ole, and Lars at our Lausanne meetings. You all are doing great things in Denmark.

I'm glad to hear you don't have much persecution.

[John Smulo]

Phil,

You guys do great stuff. I love it!

I approach things in the same way with Pagans, and just people in general. It's refreshing.

[John Smulo]

Phil,

Yeah, the picture would have been too big to fit in without being cut.

I almost included the picture of you flying on your broom, but decided it might cause too much controversy :-)

[John Lunt]

Great interview. I wonder if the foursquare church would have reacted the same way if they had seen a picture with one of their foreign missionaries with an animist or a shaman or something like that. Why is it that they can accept certain things on the foriegn mission field, but can't accept the idea of being missional to a different culture within the United States?

Great post John and may God richly bless Phil during all of this.

[cindyH]

This has been so interesting for me to read. Kuddos to Phil for going the narrow way in both trying to honor those who attacked him thru his 'inquisition' and in pressing on with the passion instilled in his heart for bridging the chasm between diverse spiritual communities.

Interestingly, my 'catalyst' was several long-term online convos with witches and pagan women who were more kind and generous than the christians I knew. I was attacked and criticized for engaging them in conversation, being interested in how they connected to their spiritual side, etc. It was a brutal intoduction to the way Jesus might has felt before the Pharisees.

[Phil Wyman]

Years ago, and back in California before we were specifically involved with reaching Pagans as a church, I was told that our approach to church planting was the kind of approach which was only found on the mission field.

The former missionary, and a church growth consultant who identified this then said, "It still is to be seen how it works in America." We were experimental then, and I guess we've only gotten more experimental over time.

John Lunt - your question is a good one.

Cindy - keep those conversations up. You are the voice (and the ears) of God to people who are searching for it in strange places.

[Eva Porcello]

I started attending The Gathering 3 years ago because of Phil and the people in his church. I had walked the Pagan/Witch path for about 7 years and realized that I did not have a problem with Jesus, I had a problem with his followers. Unfortunately, the people who come into Salem to "drive out the devil" don't seem to know the difference between a devil and a human being.

A friend told me about The Gathering and I eventually met Phil and found him to be just a regular guy. It took me awhile to gather up the courage but I did visit The Gathering and found the people to be just as warm and loving.

People knew I was a witch but I never got preached to or snubbed or treated any differently than anyone else. I got nothing but love and acceptance.

Having come back to Jesus I can't imagine having any other church home.

[mike]

Hi Phil, my prayers are with you man.

I met Phil through my friends over at Sinners and Saints and their blogging. I heard stories about the work Phil is doing over in Salem long before I met the man this past October.

I am not sure I have anything productive to add to this discussion, but I wanted to drop in to add my support to Phil.

I read some comments in the last part that had a lot of "ifs" in regards to Phils story. I wasn't there when this went down but I have met the man and seen his handy work and trust me there are no "ifs." I remember talking to Phil when a wiccan came up singing his praises. I remember Phil standing up to hateful street preachers who were putting up stumbling blocks to the gospel. I am so broken hearted over his treatment.

Phil said, "Many people in the church have believed lies spread by evangelists and Christian teachers who have told tales about Neo-Paganism only worthy of grocery store tabloid newspapers. The church has sucked up these tales about Halloween, Witches, and devils, and pastors have believed unsubstantiated (and sometimes clearly disproven) stories, and spread them in their teachings over the last 30 years. The result is that we are afraid, superstitious, and consequently offensive in our actions toward Neo-Pagans."

Phil you hit the nail on the head. I just don't get why "pagans" or "wiccans" are any scarier than anyone else. some one eluded to sharing the gospel in the mall. i tend to think that rampant materialism is a deadlier spiritual threat than neo-paganism.

it seems also that there has been a lot of discussion as to why the denomination acted as it did. some say it is "spiritual warfare" others say it is jealousy and power.

i am a little more conservative than Phil in my personal practice and maybe that leads me to downplay the whole principalities thing. but i think maybe it comes a little closer to human nature. people fear what they cannot understand/appriciate/control. it is human sin, our own corruption that leads to sad events like what phil has gone through. the lesson i take from this, and sorry Phil for making a "lesson" out of your suffering, but the lesson to me is to guard my own heart against judgments i make about people and things i do not understand.

Phil you (and your crew) are doing great things up there. I got to see it first hand in October. So here is praying and hoping that you can find funding for your ministry, and peace for your soul.

shalom man.

[Phil Wyman]

Yo Mike,

Thanks for the good word. I am just as conservative as you on this point, and can only heartily Amen your words. Now I may add a spiritual dimension to it, and therefore make myself as practical a mystic as I possibly can paradoxically be, but even that spiritualized edge sees the devil working through the fears of the people in the church, and not through some supposed, and unsubstantiated curses from Witches.

As far as Witches cursing us - this is what I know. When my son came down with a kidney disease, and my dog got hit by a car, and had his leg amputated - my Pagan friends were praying, lighting candles, and sending thoughts of healing for them both. These actions do not seem to be the acts of malevolent individuals, but of caring people.

The lesson you take away from it is the lesson I want people to learn. Don't feel sorry for pointing it out. This whole story does have a redemptive side, and that lesson is one of the redemptive elements.

Good word bro.

[John Smulo]

John L,

I think that virtually all denominations accept things on the foreign mission field that they wouldn't allow on home turf.

A couple things need to change:

1. We recognize we're called to be missionaries wherever we are, and apply missiological principles at home and abroad.

2. We stop thinking it's okay to behave one way around "us" and another way around "them".

[PamBG]

Wow, I missed all this discussion until I saw sally's comment on her blog.

Before making the comment, I should indicate to John and Phil that I am an American who grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod which views the bible as verbally inspired, inerrant and infallible - so I have experienced that which of I speak.

Phil's said something that is right on the money: "If our doctrinal stances are so strict as to not allow flex for missional interaction, we will most certainly enculturate our message to our own culture, and turn it into dogma, which is what has occurred with most of American Christianity."

I'm actually thinking here of the "syncretism" of Christianity with American Culture. I see this when people start trying to re-write American history and saying that those founding fathers - like Jefferson - who were Unitarians were "really" born-again evangelical Christians.

I see it when people think that being a Democrat is a sure sign of not having been "saved". I see it in the male-headship churches which have taken the societal hierarchies and power structures and diefied them.

British Christians are also guilty of this too. But I think actually far less than many American Christians. In my opinion, this is simply because there is absolutely no social stigma whatsoever about not going to church. This really is genuinely a post-Christian society and therefore a mission field. But it means that, generally speaking, it does leave Christians - particularly us "non-conformist" Christians - free to actually follow Jesus.

I'm reminded of a hymn chorus: "The law of Christ can make us free, and love in the fulfilling of the law." Phil, keep on following Jesus and loving all his people. And may the God of outrageous grace and generosity bless your work - and John's and Sally's.

[Phil Wyman]

I like Pam's comment here on the syncretism of Christianity with American culture, and I am thinking that it would be nice create a brain little brain trust of bloggers writing simutaneously about the idea.

[John Smulo]

Cindy,

Interesting--and sad--to hear you went through similar things. I hope that us talking about this publicly will help us to rethink how we treat those who are Pagans, and those who have friendships with them.

[John Smulo]

Eva,

Thanks for stoppping by and for sharing your story and experience at The Gathering!

[John Smulo]

Mike,

Thanks for dropping by and for sharing your support of Phil and sharing your thoughts. I'm right there with you in support of Phil, and also in your discussion about how we think of witches and others.

[John Smulo]

Pam,

I agree with you on what you wrote. It is a real problem, and with Phil, I think the syncretism and American culture issue would be good to see people blogging on.

Living in Australia for 9 years helped me to see this a bit more clearly I think. It's tough to step outside of our culture--impossible perhaps?--and really get a clear picture of what we're swimming in when we live in a culture.

[Paul Bongiovanni]

I attended Cathedral Bible College from 1987 to 1990. In fact Pastor Phil was one of my teachers. I remember how he taught about other world religions and his passion for God. I also remember all the times he led worship service and how I felt God's presence during his singing and playing the quitar.
I am truly saddened to hear about the false accusations against Pastor Phil. My thoughts and prayers go out to him and his family. My only comment to leave is- keep doing God's will and be strong in Him