Phil Wyman Interview: Excommunicated For Loving People Part 1

In this two-part interview I talk to Phil Wyman. Phil is the Pastor at The Gathering in Salem, which  has a  creative ministry to Witches.

I've followed what Wyman has been involved with over the last several years, and have been greatly encouraged to see a local church that contextualizes the Gospel to those who aren't followers of Jesus in their area. And when you live in Salem, Massachusetts, who else better to contextualize to than Witches?

In recent times, however, Phil got into hot water from people in his (former) denomination who apparently would have been happier to see him not share the Gospel with Witches. Apparently some think its acceptable to discriminate when it comes to who hears the gospel and who doesn't.

SMULO: Phil, please tell us about yourself—family, ministry experience, any hobbies—that sort of thing.

WYMAN: I'm a 48 year old California boy. I grew up in North San Diego County. Did the California stuff - competitive swimmer, waterpolo player, surfed some. My only experience in church as a kid was the Christian Science Church. So I don't have a Christian upbringing. I went to school for music, and later to Bible College at Cathedral Bible College (connected with the Foursquare Church) in Escondido, CA.

I'm married to Bev, and have been for 23 years. Bev is a Dental Hygienist, and has been an unbelievable lady in some tough ministry circumstances over the years. She plays the flute, and is a very funny public speaker. My only son Elijah is married, and is 21. He is a musician also, and you can find him at elijahwyman.com. He and his wife Rhonda have just moved in with us, because Elijah has a kidney disease, and may need a kidney transplant soon. We have two rescue greyhounds from the tracks, and one got hit by a car on Halloween morning. He is recuperating, but lost a back leg. I know it sounds like a bad country song, but that's what's happening right now.

I play guitar, mandolin, and a few other instruments. I write music as well, so I could write that bad country song, if I liked country music, but I don't so that won't happen. I'm learning to speak Welsh, because I have Welsh heritage, and because I love Wales, and the Welsh speaking community. I try to get to the U.K. at least once a year. I haven't surfed much lately, but I need to get back out into the cold, winter New England waves this year.

I became a Christian after some radical interactions with God back in 1980, and within a few years I was helping run a Christian drug/alcohol rehab program. In 1985 I began pastoring in Carlsbad, CA, and was there for 14 years. In 1999 we moved to Salem, MA to plant The Gathering. I have always pastored a small experimental church. Since 1980 I also have studied a variety of religious groups outside of traditional Christianity - Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, New Age religions, Neo-Paganism....

Because our church life has been experimental over the years, we find ourselves identifying with the emergent community these days.

SMULO: You’ve recently been ex-communicated by the Foursquare denomination led by Jack Hayford, including having your ordination revoked. This occurred in spite of the fact that you’ve been a pastor with them for twenty-years. This serious, and I trust rare, occurrence within Foursquare suggests that you’ve been involved in gross immorality or heresy. Would you please share the events leading to your dismissal?

WYMAN: On Halloween The Wall Street Journal, and The Salem News ran our story on the front page. Yet the story began in October of 2005.

October 2005 I became the recipient of a grant from the Foursquare Foundation based upon two things: 1) our success in developing an outreach program during the Halloween season here in our city of Salem, MA, and 2) relationships, and outreach efforts we had made toward the Neo-Pagan community. The grant was given to develop a postmodern evangelism training and outreach center in a high visibility location in downtown Salem.

At our District Conference that year I was lauded as the hottest, cutting-edge thing in evangelism, and was asked by our District Supervisor to invite our District churches to join us for our October outreach events.

Two weeks later the same District Supervisor (a position similar to a Bishop) who sang my praises, sent me an e-mail with a letter attached. It had 27 accusations asserting aberrant theology and practices, and included accusations of practicing Gnosticism, and dabbling in Witchcraft. The letter called me to a council meeting at which time I would be corrected, and the situation was "not open for discussion." This letter came without warning, and without previous discussion.

Unfortunately this Supervisor did not send this letter to me privately. He simultaneously sent it to the District leadership, and up the ladder to Foursquare denominational authorities.

At question were two main points: 1) a photograph of myself on a Pagan website, and 2) our website which included a page with links to Pagan sites for the purpose teaching an anthropological missiology.

The gross inaccuracies of the accusations in the letter were so broad and sweeping that it took us 55 pages to even begin to respond to them.

Myself, my wife Bev, and our assistant pastor Jeff Menasco and his wife Diane attended the council meeting. Once we arrived at the District Council meeting our documentation was rejected with the District Supervisor's statement, "I'm driving this meeting not you." The council meeting was 3 hours long, and included such items as taking 45 minutes to challenge us on, "How could you be friends with Witches?", a defense of the photograph which was quickly understood to be completely innocent (Diane Menasco had been an eyewitness to the event), the insinuation that we were promoting Tarot because one could buy Tarot cards through a Pagan site by following links from our site, and accusations that we neglected the 90% of the non-Pagan population in Salem to try and reach Witches. The meeting eventually descended into an abyss of personal accusations against me such as: I did not mention the name Jesus frequently enough during the meeting, I did not lift my hands high enough in worship during the most recent District Conference, and that I was learning Welsh because it was the language of the Druids.

Some of these people were our friends, or so we thought, but only three people out of 13 even gave a remote hint of defense of our position.

We politically survived this meeting, but our reputation, and our relationships were seriously harmed by a meeting which was as close to an Inquisition, or a Witchtrial as anything could come in America today. The few sane thinkers on the Council were apparently afraid to speak up, and contradict the agenda of the District Supervisor.

It was a full three months later that we attempted to speak to the District Supervisor personally about the unbiblical, and offensive manner of his actions toward us. He refused to speak with me, and instead threatened to have me removed from the church. At this point I was counseled by a Vice President of the denomination to appeal. Yet my appeal was ignored, and before anyone even spoke with me I received a certified letter on March 24th of this year informing me that effective March 8th (16 days earlier!), our church had its non-profit status as a Foursquare Church removed, and that my ordination was revoked by the National Board. No one even told me that the issue was before the National Board! I appealed, as per the bylaws, to the General Supervisor, and once again the appeal was ignored. Without discussion, or representation, or any kind of fact finding they refused to consider the appeal.

At this moment the board actually holds another request to reconsider their actions in their hands.

I suppose the gross immorality I was involved in was that I was too friendly with Neo-Pagans, and the heresy was believing that they were real people worthy of being respected like anybody else.

Stay tuned. Part two tomorrow. Until then, why don't you prayerfully consider supporting the ministry Phil leads? You can find a donation link at the bottom of The Gathering website.

Comments

[molly]

WOW! Boy, I'm ready to hear part 2 already... Sheesh! *grr*

[hamo]

Very very sad.

Assuming Phil's side of the story is accurate I feel angry at this crazy situation.

But not surprised.

It seems that there are some places we stil shouldn't go and some people we still shouldn't hang out with.

I remember doing a weekend at the local 'healing festival' and finding it hard to get a team together because people were scared of 'them'...

[Webb Kline]

I too have faced rejection by the church for being an evangelist, although not with such extreme consequences. But, disheartening nonetheless. I have concluded that the best thing one can do is to humbly shake the dust from one's sandals and forge ahead in that which the Lord has called us to do.

Nearly everything that becomes institutionalized eventually has the Spirit replaced by the ego and power driven agendas of people with control issues. I apologize if that seems a tad too generalized, but in my experience, it's simply that way.

I've been to Salem and I have spent some time studying the witch trial documents. I believe that there are spiritual issues in that town that go back to the earliest days of America which still hold ramifications for the spirituality of the rest of the country.

Anyone who would discourage a man's efforts to dispel such deceptive darkness, to me, is clearly more concerned with their own kingdom building than God's. But, when you consider the kind of principalities this fellow and his wife are facing everyday, it's not hard to understand how said principalities would attempt to take him out from within his own church. I've seen that same thing happen many times. It's sad, but as long as the western church continues to allow rationalism to drive its theology, such stories will continue to be told.

In reading the real history of the witch trials and the Puritans, you will find that excommunication was abused quite frequently--although in some cases was justifiable, so its not hard for me to believe that the powers of darkness would use the same tool against God's servants.

And in the end, if it is found that the Wyman's story is somewhat mixed and that in their efforts to evangelize the pagan community they have themselves have allowed the enemy to compromise their mission, this, too, would not be surprising. Yet, it would be all the more reason why their church should be behind them rather than shunning them.

One thing any true missional evangelist will learn sooner or later is that principalities and powers don't like us treading on their turf--especially when people begin to find Jesus. But, if we persevere, we will prevail. In the midst of such a tough blow, satan makes us want to crawl up in a spiritual fetal postion an give up. Yet it is when we break through the lie of defeat, we ultimately discover that the greatest breakthroughs in our ministry await us on the other side.

The Wymans NEED our continued prayer support to help them through this time of discouragement. They are on the verge of a huge breakthrough in their ministry if something of this magnitude has rocked their lives. The work they are doing there is even more important than they probably realize. May God bless them, comfort them and empower them.

[Matt Wiebe]

My gut reactions are not fit to print, containing as much profanity as they do.

I completely agree with Webb in saying that *if* they "have allowed the enemy to compromise their mission, this, too, would not be surprising. Yet, it would be all the more reason why their church should be behind them rather than shunning them."

[Toni]

"I've been to Salem and I have spent some time studying the witch trial documents. I believe that there are spiritual issues in that town that go back to the earliest days of America which still hold ramifications for the spirituality of the rest of the country."

These are my feeling exactly, although I've never visited Salem. I have a feeling that the spiritual topography of North America has been deeply affected by both the previous principalities that were involved with the Indians, and by those that came with the white settlers. These people are striking at something that is deeply rooted American culture and life, and need support as Webb says.

BTW Hamo - I quite understand why people might be frightened or unsure about going to such an event. You would need to be secure in your faith and understanding of the gospel, and also walking in purity before God.

[Margaret]

interesting

[John Smulo]

Molly,

Patience, patience, part 2 will be up later :-) I really want people to have a chance to think through this. I think there's a widespread problem here that we need to work on.

[John Smulo]

Hamo,

I'm personally angry about this, and I don't get angry very often. Some things are black and white wrong. For me this is one of them.

I'm glad Jesus didn't respond like this, discriminating who can receive his grace and hear the gospel, and who can't.

[John Smulo]

Webb,

Thanks for your thoughts. I've also found that spiritual warfare and human sin is an extremely destructive combination.

The sad thing is it's hard for many people to take repeated blows like this. It affects not only oneself, but spouse, children, etc.

[John Smulo]

Matt,

Sounds like your gut reactions were similar to mine.

[John Smulo]

Toni,

I agree that there's a spiritual component to this as I said in response to Webb, but I certainly don't want to take the human sin element out.

Leaders who make these decisions need to be held accountable for them if they're wrong. They certainly have huge consequences in people's lives as Phil's shared in his interview.

[John Smulo]

Margaret,

You're a woman of many words :-) Thanks for sharing.

[hamo]

Toni

I do have some understanding of spiritual forces, but honeslty I don't see why this arena (new age fair) should be any different to the local shoping centre where the spiritual forces of consumerism are rife?

In my view (and my expeirence) most of these folks are very decent people but who hold different views on spiritual issues.

I remember Neil Cole once said that many Christian are 'afraid of the dark', becuse we don't really believe that light is more powerful than darkness. I tend to think he was right.

Am I missing something?

It disturbs me that these guys enter some special section of 'non-Christians' where we need to be careful because that is firslty disempowering to your average person who wishes to connect with them, but secondly it is the kind of thinking that ultimately leads to a story like this.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to you there Toni - I just disagree strongly :)

I'd be interested to hear your response as I may be missing something.

[johnwmorehead]

John, thanks for giving Phil another forum for sharing his story. We need more folks willing to engage "alterantive" spiritualities in creative and missional ways, even though such approaches make organizations like Calvary Chapel uncomfortable!

[Dave Quinn]

Look like things haven't changed much since Jesus' days. They were on at Him for hanging around with sinners and tax collectors! All He was trying to do was reach them too!

I look forward to part 2.

[Paul]

Sometimes we just suck as a church, i know i often suck as an individual on making judgements and I'm sorry that Phil and his family have had such grief from his church family...

If it's not a reminder that we follow Jesus who was rejected and despised and persecuted and we should expect the same then I don't what is.

Interestingly the early church welcomed persecution as they felt it identified them with Jesus that they were worthy of the experience of the Master... maybe it is something we need to learn/remind ourselves as we reach out to people on the edge who are spirtually hungry but traditionally disenfranchised from our religious communities...

[Matt Wiebe]

This reminds me of a story I heard from about a South African Vineyard church: There was a prominent new age fair that set up yearly in their town, and these two guys with prophetic giftings went there, set up a booth and offered to prophesy over people. Gutsy!

Apparently nothing much came of it the first go around, but the second time resulted in a ton of interesting stuff! I couldn't find any written documentation, but I could dig up a link to the talk by their pastor if anyone's interested.

[Phil Wyman]

Hi Gang,

This is Phil. Thanks for the support. The story is far more convoluted that I was able to relay in a short interview.

One of the weirdest things is that the people who accused us, and then sat on the council never visited our outreach during October.

We do not practice "wrestling with territorial spirits," and choose rather to use blessing as the first tool against a "curse" in our "spiritual warfare."

I have asked some of the other people who have walked with us through this issue to enter the dialogue, and hope that they will. So you can a fuller picture of the story.

[sally]

Phil, I guess bottom line is some of us are called to go where angels fear to tread... I just wish that people would hear us out rather than making snap judgements.

John thank you again- on the winning blogger front- you are up there for content and interesting interviews!

[Gaz]

This is really disturbing. To be celebrated one week then kicked out the next is a huge thing.
Obviously there are forces working here beyond the physical.
I don't know much about Salem but I've heard about the witch trials and I'd imagine the enemy would be well entrenched there. Meaning anyone who tries to work there is open to spiritual attack.
I'll be praying for Phil and family.

[Jen]

Wow. Crazy..
I look forward to part two.

[John Smulo]

Hamo,

I am on the same page as you in regard to not believing these guys belong in a separate category.

I don't see that there are special classes of people who are more dangerous, etc. than others scripturally. I do see that we're to go into all the world and preach the gospel without discrimination.

I'm planning on blogging more about this subject later in the week.

[John Smulo]

John M,

I think that this deserves as much attention as we can give it. If you have a link to what you wrote on this please put it in a comment.

I think, sadly, most denominations (or, cough cough, "movements") have at least some people who struggle with this kind of thing. But I feel strongly that we need to begin taking the Great Commission seriously.

[John Smulo]

Dave,

Very true. Phil's in company with this one :-)

[John Smulo]

Paul,

I'm not clear what you mean here. That Phil should welcome this? That the early church persecuted each other? Something else?

[John Smulo]

Matt,

If it's not too much trouble I'd be interested in more info about the South African event. Thanks.

[John Smulo]

Phil,

Thanks again. I hope the others will share. It would be great to hear from others involved.

[Matt Wiebe]

Not a big problem John, I knew where to find it. The talk is by Derek Morphew, one of the more respected theologians of the Vineyard movement and pastor of a Cape Town Vineyard. He talks about what he thinks God is "up to" these days, and then the prophetic evangelism bit is an example.

http://www.scvine1.com/Teaching/20051023%20What%20is%20God%20up%20to%20(Derek%20Morphew).MP3

[John Smulo]

Sally,

Ditto on wishing people wouldn't make snap judgments about the kind of ministry you, Phil, myself and others are involved in.

Thanks for the encouraging feedback about the content of my blog :-)

[John Smulo]

Saint Gaz,

Thanks for dropping by. I think there's spiritual attack here, but I also think there's that everywhere in life. Human sin, including my own, is always out there too. Both make for a toxic cocktail sadly.

Thanks for praying for Phil. With the above, that's crucial.

[John Smulo]

Jen,

Thanks, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

[John Smulo]

Matt,

Thanks for the link. Look forward to listening to it tomorrow.

[Webb Kline]

Phil said:[We do not practice "wrestling with territorial spirits," and choose rather to use blessing as the first tool against a "curse" in our "spiritual warfare."]

Everyone should heed what Phil is saying here. This, I believe, is where the church typically gets off course, and Phil's words are rife with divine wisdom. Years ago I followed the popular theories about spiritual warfare, and while we certainly stirred the heavenlies and experienced some powerful initial success, we paid a horrible price, and in the end lost the battle from an evangelistic perspective. Worse, I became mysteriously sick to the point of near-death, which was never diagnosed, my wife deserted my sons and me, and in the end a successful church plant we had made where many people had overcome drug and alcohol addictions fell apart-not because of my problems, but because of the same judmental spirit that Phil and his family have been victimized by. I can relate so well to the trials he speaks of in the 2nd part of John's interview with him.

It is true that our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but we must remember that Jesus did not call his legion of angels into battle but rather, he broke the cycle of aggression on the cross--ultimately the only legitimate way Christians can dispel the power of darkness. When He could have cursed those who persecuted him, he chose instead to shower them with the blessings of grace, mercy, forgiveness and uncompromising love. Against these things no principalities or powers can stand.

Phil, I pray that God will return to you manifold blessings for the steadfast love you have shown that community despite what has been done to you. Better days are ahead my brother.

[Phil Wyman]

Webb,

Good words. Obviously born from experience. But not all of us learn from the school of hardknocks. Much of the church languishes in the decay of our spiritual warfare violence, like children playing in the rubble of war, and like those children we are finding the landmines.

To the merciful God will show Himself as merciful - may we be providers of mercy.

[Paul]

All I meant John is that if we are following Jesus we are gonna suffer - whether we welcome that or not is a moot point, altho i blogged here about not being spiritual rambos but then again not being shocked when we go through trials that we get pissed and quit...
http://paulmayers.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/11/the_trial_of_tr.html#comments

Jesus, James, Peter, Paul all seemed to use words like rejoice/joy/worthy in relation to trials which i think was less to do with being crazy masochists and more to do with being identified as a follower of Jesus and sharing in his suffering and the suffering/rejection/scorn of the servanthood that the community of God's people have always experienced...

I don't wish suffering on anyone, nor I think does the loving God I follow...but nor do I think that we should be surprised when we do suffer for following/being like our friend/Master Jesus - who was despised, rejected and a man of sorrows

If that helps?

[Adam]

Good grief! Assuming this side of the story is accurate, that's a ridiculous abuse of power by the denominational leadership.

[John Smulo]

Adam,

I certainly haven't seen any evidence to the contrary that Phil's side of the story isn't accurate, and it's been a fairly high profile story with the Wall Street Journal article.

It greatly bothers me to see the abuse of power in this situation.

[John Smulo]

Webb and Phil,

Important further thoughts on spiritual warfare, thanks.

[John Smulo]

Paul,

All true for sure. But still doesn't make it easy, which I know you know.

[Jim Henderson]

I didnt read all of this but I have been friends with and an admirer of Phil's courageous and innovative approach in Salem for the past 3 years.

He is for real

[John Smulo]

Jim,

Thanks for stopping by, and also for putting the link in the Off The Map newsletter.

Phil is the real deal for sure.

[Paul]

so true John

[Jeff Menasco]

Thanks John for the interview.

I'm Phil's assistant pastor. I have been with Phil sense before we all moved to Salem.

I think that it is important to understand that to us this is largely Matt. 18 issue. From their perspective we were "released from Foursquare to follow our mission" under somebody else's covering because because we were not submissive to their authority. But the way we see it is that they threw out a couple dozen false accusations as facts in a letter distributed to all, (about 20 pastors), the Southern New England Foursquare leader ship that preceded our meeting with the District Advisory Council which is referred to in the first half of the interview with Phil. This letter stated as fact that we had "aberrant theology" and practice even though only two of that twenty had ever been up to visit us. Both those supported the work that we did. Then at the meeting was a literal inquisition: we were only allowed to answer the questions that they put forward at the meeting; we were not allowed to mount our own defense; we were not allowed to submit any of the defensive evidence that we'd prepared; we were not allowed to bring witnesses to refute their accusation that we were ignoring the concerns of various Salem non/Foursquare pastors; they were allowed to use secret testimony as evidence against us; I could go on. Many of the accusations made in the letter were not brought up at the meeting but simply left to stand. Even so, we were able to answer every charge and were given only three mandates as we left, (take pagan links off the web site and they could be on their own dedicated site; make web site unequivocally Christian; be informative with the advisory group we had set up to help oversee our grant funding), none of them had to do with orthodoxy or orthopraxis.

Please understand that we had no problem with anything that they ultimately asked us to do.
• Grant advisors had been kept up to date with weekly contacts for more than a month
• Web links were put up with the knowledge and approval of our District Supervisor
• Our statement on the web site of what we believe is unequivocally Christian

The web links were the only substantive change and we had asked for and been given permission to have those. Still we would have gotten rid of those with phone call or an email. Instead, they make dozens of false accusations, call us into a meeting to be raked over the coals by our friends and then no apology or acknowledgment of having misspoken. They had something against us but they didn't go to their brother, they didn't come with one or two others, no they took it directly to the congregation... and what they took was false! When we left that meeting we were all in a daze. It had been incredibly traumatic. I told the other three (my wife, Phil and Bev) that I felt like the girl that had been raped and then told she deserved it.

So, we try and take it to our brother. Three months later after much consideration the opportunity presents it self to express how we feel we were hurt and wronged by the District Supervisors actions. He agreed to meet with us but in the subsequent days of trying to set up that meeting he makes an about face and declares that "our future with Foursquare" is now at issue. We appeal to a higher power at the advise of a Foursquare VP. A few months later we are told we're out. All this time we have honored all the demands place on us by our district. All we have wanted to do is sit down with our brothers and tell them how they have hurt us and seek some kind of reconciliation.

Yes, I'm sure their superstitions about our involvement with pagans fueled their fears but the real breakdown was a relational one. They have held their authority in higher value than their desire for relationship. As if sitting with someone who disagrees with them would make them weaker. But by gripping so tightly they have indeed become weaker.

Last note. Yes, there are principalities at play but make no mistake, the one that is most active in all this is the unbelievably powerful principality of superstition that resides in the hearts of so many Christians.

Sorry this was so long.

[John Smulo]

Jeff,

Thank you for sharing further. I feel deeply for you and your wife and Phil and his wife, and everyone else who was unjustly impacted through this.

As someone who's tasted the pain from this behavior I know how hard it is, and wish there was more I could do. Let me know if there is.

Thanks again for dropping by and sharing.

[Kyle Knapp]

Phil,

Wow! What a story! You may not remember me, we met at the Fishnet Cafe (where I was performing) in Philly just after '30 Foursquare convention.

I too had an unpleasant parting of ways (though not near as dramatic as yours) with the leadership of the North Plains District. Painful as the experience was, looking back it's clear that God was in control all along.

Is it possible that God has allowed this travesty to take place in order to a)purify your devotion to him, rather than to a denominational system, and b)to rid you of institutional entanglements so you can be completely free to follow the Holy Spirit's direction in ministry?

Just a thought.

I wish you peace, strength and many blessings. Our fellowship will be in prayer on your behalf.

[Phil Wyman]

Kyle,

We've been struggling with the denominational system, and some of the more legalistic responses to our ministry for awhile, so point b) definitely applies to a great degree. I also have had a desire to emphasize the need for a more relational model of Christianity - boy do I have a story to tell now!

My wife definitely relates to point a) because she held leadership in high esteem previously. Me - I'm from California, and that ought to define my opinion of leadership in itself. ;-)