Phil Wyman Interview: Excommunicated For Loving People Part 1

In this two-part interview I talk to Phil Wyman. Phil is the Pastor at The Gathering in Salem, which  has a  creative ministry to Witches.

I've followed what Wyman has been involved with over the last several years, and have been greatly encouraged to see a local church that contextualizes the Gospel to those who aren't followers of Jesus in their area. And when you live in Salem, Massachusetts, who else better to contextualize to than Witches?

In recent times, however, Phil got into hot water from people in his (former) denomination who apparently would have been happier to see him not share the Gospel with Witches. Apparently some think its acceptable to discriminate when it comes to who hears the gospel and who doesn't.

SMULO: Phil, please tell us about yourself—family, ministry experience, any hobbies—that sort of thing.

WYMAN: I'm a 48 year old California boy. I grew up in North San Diego County. Did the California stuff - competitive swimmer, waterpolo player, surfed some. My only experience in church as a kid was the Christian Science Church. So I don't have a Christian upbringing. I went to school for music, and later to Bible College at Cathedral Bible College (connected with the Foursquare Church) in Escondido, CA.

I'm married to Bev, and have been for 23 years. Bev is a Dental Hygienist, and has been an unbelievable lady in some tough ministry circumstances over the years. She plays the flute, and is a very funny public speaker. My only son Elijah is married, and is 21. He is a musician also, and you can find him at elijahwyman.com. He and his wife Rhonda have just moved in with us, because Elijah has a kidney disease, and may need a kidney transplant soon. We have two rescue greyhounds from the tracks, and one got hit by a car on Halloween morning. He is recuperating, but lost a back leg. I know it sounds like a bad country song, but that's what's happening right now.

I play guitar, mandolin, and a few other instruments. I write music as well, so I could write that bad country song, if I liked country music, but I don't so that won't happen. I'm learning to speak Welsh, because I have Welsh heritage, and because I love Wales, and the Welsh speaking community. I try to get to the U.K. at least once a year. I haven't surfed much lately, but I need to get back out into the cold, winter New England waves this year.

I became a Christian after some radical interactions with God back in 1980, and within a few years I was helping run a Christian drug/alcohol rehab program. In 1985 I began pastoring in Carlsbad, CA, and was there for 14 years. In 1999 we moved to Salem, MA to plant The Gathering. I have always pastored a small experimental church. Since 1980 I also have studied a variety of religious groups outside of traditional Christianity - Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, New Age religions, Neo-Paganism....

Because our church life has been experimental over the years, we find ourselves identifying with the emergent community these days.

SMULO: You’ve recently been ex-communicated by the Foursquare denomination led by Jack Hayford, including having your ordination revoked. This occurred in spite of the fact that you’ve been a pastor with them for twenty-years. This serious, and I trust rare, occurrence within Foursquare suggests that you’ve been involved in gross immorality or heresy. Would you please share the events leading to your dismissal?

WYMAN: On Halloween The Wall Street Journal, and The Salem News ran our story on the front page. Yet the story began in October of 2005.

October 2005 I became the recipient of a grant from the Foursquare Foundation based upon two things: 1) our success in developing an outreach program during the Halloween season here in our city of Salem, MA, and 2) relationships, and outreach efforts we had made toward the Neo-Pagan community. The grant was given to develop a postmodern evangelism training and outreach center in a high visibility location in downtown Salem.

At our District Conference that year I was lauded as the hottest, cutting-edge thing in evangelism, and was asked by our District Supervisor to invite our District churches to join us for our October outreach events.

Two weeks later the same District Supervisor (a position similar to a Bishop) who sang my praises, sent me an e-mail with a letter attached. It had 27 accusations asserting aberrant theology and practices, and included accusations of practicing Gnosticism, and dabbling in Witchcraft. The letter called me to a council meeting at which time I would be corrected, and the situation was "not open for discussion." This letter came without warning, and without previous discussion.

Unfortunately this Supervisor did not send this letter to me privately. He simultaneously sent it to the District leadership, and up the ladder to Foursquare denominational authorities.

At question were two main points: 1) a photograph of myself on a Pagan website, and 2) our website which included a page with links to Pagan sites for the purpose teaching an anthropological missiology.

The gross inaccuracies of the accusations in the letter were so broad and sweeping that it took us 55 pages to even begin to respond to them.

Myself, my wife Bev, and our assistant pastor Jeff Menasco and his wife Diane attended the council meeting. Once we arrived at the District Council meeting our documentation was rejected with the District Supervisor's statement, "I'm driving this meeting not you." The council meeting was 3 hours long, and included such items as taking 45 minutes to challenge us on, "How could you be friends with Witches?", a defense of the photograph which was quickly understood to be completely innocent (Diane Menasco had been an eyewitness to the event), the insinuation that we were promoting Tarot because one could buy Tarot cards through a Pagan site by following links from our site, and accusations that we neglected the 90% of the non-Pagan population in Salem to try and reach Witches. The meeting eventually descended into an abyss of personal accusations against me such as: I did not mention the name Jesus frequently enough during the meeting, I did not lift my hands high enough in worship during the most recent District Conference, and that I was learning Welsh because it was the language of the Druids.

Some of these people were our friends, or so we thought, but only three people out of 13 even gave a remote hint of defense of our position.

We politically survived this meeting, but our reputation, and our relationships were seriously harmed by a meeting which was as close to an Inquisition, or a Witchtrial as anything could come in America today. The few sane thinkers on the Council were apparently afraid to speak up, and contradict the agenda of the District Supervisor.

It was a full three months later that we attempted to speak to the District Supervisor personally about the unbiblical, and offensive manner of his actions toward us. He refused to speak with me, and instead threatened to have me removed from the church. At this point I was counseled by a Vice President of the denomination to appeal. Yet my appeal was ignored, and before anyone even spoke with me I received a certified letter on March 24th of this year informing me that effective March 8th (16 days earlier!), our church had its non-profit status as a Foursquare Church removed, and that my ordination was revoked by the National Board. No one even told me that the issue was before the National Board! I appealed, as per the bylaws, to the General Supervisor, and once again the appeal was ignored. Without discussion, or representation, or any kind of fact finding they refused to consider the appeal.

At this moment the board actually holds another request to reconsider their actions in their hands.

I suppose the gross immorality I was involved in was that I was too friendly with Neo-Pagans, and the heresy was believing that they were real people worthy of being respected like anybody else.

Stay tuned. Part two tomorrow. Until then, why don't you prayerfully consider supporting the ministry Phil leads? You can find a donation link at the bottom of The Gathering website.

Comments

[molly]

WOW! Boy, I'm ready to hear part 2 already... Sheesh! *grr*

[hamo]

Very very sad.

Assuming Phil's side of the story is accurate I feel angry at this crazy situation.

But not surprised.

It seems that there are some places we stil shouldn't go and some people we still shouldn't hang out with.

I remember doing a weekend at the local 'healing festival' and finding it hard to get a team together because people were scared of 'them'...

[Webb Kline]

I too have faced rejection by the church for being an evangelist, although not with such extreme consequences. But, disheartening nonetheless. I have concluded that the best thing one can do is to humbly shake the dust from one's sandals and forge ahead in that which the Lord has called us to do.

Nearly everything that becomes institutionalized eventually has the Spirit replaced by the ego and power driven agendas of people with control issues. I apologize if that seems a tad too generalized, but in my experience, it's simply that way.

I've been to Salem and I have spent some time studying the witch trial documents. I believe that there are spiritual issues in that town that go back to the earliest days of America which still hold ramifications for the spirituality of the rest of the country.

Anyone who would discourage a man's efforts to dispel such deceptive darkness, to me, is clearly more concerned with their own kingdom building than God's. But, when you consider the kind of principalities this fellow and his wife are facing everyday, it's not hard to understand how said principalities would attempt to take him out from within his own church. I've seen that same thing happen many times. It's sad, but as long as the western church continues to allow rationalism to drive its theology, such stories will continue to be told.

In reading the real history of the witch trials and the Puritans, you will find that excommunication was abused quite frequently--although in some cases was justifiable, so its not hard for me to believe that the powers of darkness would use the same tool against God's servants.

And in the end, if it is found that the Wyman's story is somewhat mixed and that in their efforts to evangelize the pagan community they have themselves have allowed the enemy to compromise their mission, this, too, would not be surprising. Yet, it would be all the more reason why their church should be behind them rather than shunning them.

One thing any true missional evangelist will learn sooner or later is that principalities and powers don't like us treading on their turf--especially when people begin to find Jesus. But, if we persevere, we will prevail. In the midst of such a tough blow, satan makes us want to crawl up in a spiritual fetal postion an give up. Yet it is when we break through the lie of defeat, we ultimately discover that the greatest breakthroughs in our ministry await us on the other side.

The Wymans NEED our continued prayer support to help them through this time of discouragement. They are on the verge of a huge breakthrough in their ministry if something of this magnitude has rocked their lives. The work they are doing there is even more important than they probably realize. May God bless them, comfort them and empower them.

[Matt Wiebe]

My gut reactions are not fit to print, containing as much profanity as they do.

I completely agree with Webb in saying that *if* they "have allowed the enemy to compromise their mission, this, too, would not be surprising. Yet, it would be all the more reason why their church should be behind them rather than shunning them."

[Toni]

"I've been to Salem and I have spent some time studying the witch trial documents. I believe that there are spiritual issues in that town that go back to the earliest days of America which still hold ramifications for the spirituality of the rest of the country."

These are my feeling exactly, although I've never visited Salem. I have a feeling that the spiritual topography of North America has been deeply affected by both the previous principalities that were involved with the Indians, and by those that came with the white settlers. These people are striking at something that is deeply rooted American culture and life, and need support as Webb says.

BTW Hamo - I quite understand why people might be frightened or unsure about going to such an event. You would need to be secure in your faith and understanding of the gospel, and also walking in purity before God.

[Margaret]

interesting

[John Smulo]

Molly,

Patience, patience, part 2 will be up later :-) I really want people to have a chance to think through this. I think there's a widespread problem here that we need to work on.

[John Smulo]

Hamo,

I'm personally angry about this, and I don't get angry very often. Some things are black and white wrong. For me this is one of them.

I'm glad Jesus didn't respond like this, discriminating who can receive his grace and hear the gospel, and who can't.

[John Smulo]

Webb,

Thanks for your thoughts. I've also found that spiritual warfare and human sin is an extremely destructive combination.

The sad thing is it's hard for many people to take repeated blows like this. It affects not only oneself, but spouse, children, etc.

[John Smulo]

Matt,

Sounds like your gut reactions were similar to mine.

[John Smulo]

Toni,

I agree that there's a spiritual component to this as I said in response to Webb, but I certainly don't want to take the human sin element out.

Leaders who make these decisions need to be held accountable for them if they're wrong. They certainly have huge consequences in people's lives as Phil's shared in his interview.

[John Smulo]

Margaret,

You're a woman of many words :-) Thanks for sharing.

[hamo]

Toni

I do have some understanding of spiritual forces, but honeslty I don't see why this arena (new age fair) should be any different to the local shoping centre where the spiritual forces of consumerism are rife?

In my view (and my expeirence) most of these folks are very decent people but who hold different views on spiritual issues.

I remember Neil Cole once said that many Christian are 'afraid of the dark', becuse we don't really believe that light is more powerful than darkness. I tend to think he was right.

Am I missing something?

It disturbs me that these guys enter some special section of 'non-Christians' where we need to be careful because that is firslty disempowering to your average person who wishes to connect with them, but secondly it is the kind of thinking that ultimately leads to a story like this.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to you there Toni - I just disagree strongly :)

I'd be interested to hear your response as I may be missing something.

[johnwmorehead]

John, thanks for giving Phil another forum for sharing his story. We need more folks willing to engage "alterantive" spiritualities in creative and missional ways, even though such approaches make organizations like Calvary Chapel uncomfortable!

[Dave Quinn]

Look like things haven't changed much since Jesus' days. They were on at Him for hanging around with sinners and tax collectors! All He was trying to do was reach them too!

I look forward to part 2.

[Paul]

Sometimes we just suck as a church, i know i often suck as an individual on making judgements and I'm sorry that Phil and his family have had such grief from his church family...

If it's not a reminder that we follow Jesus who was rejected and despised and persecuted and we should expect the same then I don't what is.

Interestingly the early church welcomed persecution as they felt it identified them with Jesus that they were worthy of the experience of the Master... maybe it is something we need to learn/remind ourselves as we reach out to people on the edge who are spirtually hungry but traditionally disenfranchised from our religious communities...

[Matt Wiebe]

This reminds me of a story I heard from about a South African Vineyard church: There was a prominent new age fair that set up yearly in their town, and these two guys with prophetic giftings went there, set up a booth and offered to prophesy over people. Gutsy!

Apparently nothing much came of it the first go around, but the second time resulted in a ton of interesting stuff! I couldn't find any written documentation, but I could dig up a link to the talk by their pastor if anyone's interested.

[Phil Wyman]

Hi Gang,

This is Phil. Thanks for the support. The story is far more convoluted that I was able to relay in a short interview.

One of the weirdest things is that the people who accused us, and then sat on the council never visited our outreach during October.

We do not practice "wrestling with territorial spirits," and choose rather to use blessing as the first tool against a "curse" in our "spiritual warfare."

I have asked some of the other people who have walked with us through this issue to enter the dialogue, and hope that they will. So you can a fuller picture of the story.

[sally]

Phil, I guess bottom line is some of us are called to go where angels fear to tread... I just wish that people would hear us out rather than making snap judgements.

John thank you again- on the winning blogger front- you are up there for content and interesting interviews!

[Gaz]

This is really disturbing. To be celebrated one week then kicked out the next is a huge thing.
Obviously there are forces working here beyond the physical.
I don't know much about Salem but I've heard about the witch trials and I'd imagine the enemy would be well entrenched there. Meaning anyone who tries to work there is open to spiritual attack.
I'll be praying for Phil and family.

[Jen]

Wow. Crazy..
I look forward to part two.

[John Smulo]

Hamo,

I am on the same page as you in regard to not believing these guys belong in a separate category.

I don't see that there are special classes of people who are more dangerous, etc. than others scripturally. I do see that we're to go into all the world and preach the gospel without discrimination.

I'm planning on blogging more about this subject later in the week.

[John Smulo]

John M,

I think that this deserves as much attention as we can give it. If you have a link to what you wrote on this please put it in a comment.

I think, sadly, most denominations (or, cough cough, "movements") have at least some people who struggle with this kind of thing. But I feel strongly that we need to begin taking the Great Commission seriously.

[John Smulo]

Dave,

Very true. Phil's in company with this one :-)

[John Smulo]

Paul,

I'm not clear what you mean here. That Phil should welcome this? That the early church persecuted each other? Something else?